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The Preservation of the Qur’an Reply to Samuel Green Part 1/2

By: Mustafa Sahin, Br Ijaz Ahmed

Samuel Green article can be found here:
http://answering-islam.org/Green/uthman.htm

Chapter 1: Refuted: Muhammeds Perfect Memory.

Our Muslim Response:
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/rebuttal_to_samuel_green_s_article__muhammad_s_perfect_memory___

Chapter 2: Muhamned recited Quran without Editing:

Mustafa Sahin:
Samuel Green answers his own Question notice the Prophet is not doing the editing,
rather we have no issue in verse’s being replaced. If one studied Quranic science one would come to know the Quran was taking shape at the time. Allah tell’s us one verse can be replaced (via} another. Quran was a guide to every changing situation not just for the present situation. Hence some verses would change due to the change of circumstances. Like when the Direction of Prayer was changed from Masjeed Al-Aqsa to Masjid Al-Haram once the Muslim Population grew around Macca.

Chapter 3: Is there only 1 version of the Quran?

Our Muslim Response: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Qiraat/green.html

Chapter 4: Was the Quran collected Under One book under Muhammed Supervision?

Mustafa Sahin:
Samuel Green makes so many mistakes in his paper, for example he suggests that there was NO QURAN in it’s hard copy during the Life of the Prophet Muhammed {Pbuh}, and he qoutes a hadith that state’s the Quran was never put in book form.

What he fails to understand is that there was no binding company back then however the pages of the Quran seperate in leaf forms were carried around.

Hadith Proof: The Qur’an was not only TRANSMITTED ORALLY but was also WRITTEN DOWN DURING THE LIFE TIME OF THE PROPHET . An example of this is when Umar converted to Islam, he wanted to see the leaves his sister was reading (Ibn Hisham pg.156). Ibn Umar narrated that the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم said : “Do not take the Qur’an on a journey with you, for I am afraid lest it should fall into the hands of the enemy.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 4 No. 233). THIS INDICATES THAT THE QUR’AN WAS A WRITTEN DOCUMENT.

Chapter 5: How Many Collections of the Quran were made by Muhammeds Companions?

Mustafa Sahin:
Samuel Green in Sureh 9:23 shows two Hadith that suggest’s there was a slight word verience in the Reading for this Sureh. Which again does not in any important way change the meaning of the Verse. In saying that, it was no issue for companions to have minor verience that dont effect the meaning or even major ones among them. Because when it came to the Compilation of the Quran once Cross referencing was achived then the council will decide, why? Because the Prophet did not say learn the Quran from everybody, rather he said learn it from the Top four Companions ibn Masood was one of them. Who learnt it to the Most Accurate way. So if another companion learn’t it with major diffrence then he would be over ridden by companion on higher position.

Samuel Green then argues, Ibn Masood did not have the two Extra Surehs that companion Kab had in his personal Mushaf?

Our Muslim Response: http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/10/ibn-masud-mushaf-last-surahs-fatiha.html?m=1

Samuel Green then argues, goes onto show Veriences, but like i said any verience in the Text can be cross referenced by the Companions in Authority, removing any innacuray according to there knowledge since the Prophet gave the 4 mentioned highest authority since the Prophet Said they were to be consulted.

Samuel Green then argues, Quran contains 116 chapters not 114?
As for the 116 Surehs this is another lie. Ubaid ibn Kab added the Dua of Qunoot after sureh 114 brocken to two parts which seemed as though it was 116 Sureh. Which is false.

Therefore it was clear that some companions did not have lots of paper type materials so they would attach side notes where they would write the Quran. These side notes may consist of Dua(suplications) and even Hadeeth narrations. And even in some cases Tefsir(commentary).

Br Apologist Yahya Snow explains more here;

The Prophet said Let them learn the Quran from Four: Abdullah ibn Masood, Salim, Muad and Kab

Samuel Green, Notice here one crucial point. Why did the Prophet mention these four? Because the Prophet Believed these were one of the Top four, that if there are slight veriences amoung companions they can always cross reference the Quran with the Top four in Authority who knew the Quran more then anybody else.

So when Samuel goes around picking at small veriences here and there, it can still be consulted by Cross referencing, Why? Because when Uthman was compiling the Quran the council of Muslims were present there. And none of them objected to the final standardization of the Quran in it’s hard copy. You would think that if Samuels narrative is true, that diffrences were not rectified then we would have seen objections, which caused war and out break.

Think about this, Early Muslims went to war amoung each other over Khilafa issues, but never went to war over what is the correct version of the Quran. This very fact puts Samuel green in a very very awkward position i must say.

Samuel Green then argues, that there were Chapter order veriences amoung Quranic Manuscripts.

Well Sureh order, does not effect the Text. It could be upside down for the matter. It doesn’t change the meaning and the message portrayed in the Text. Just like if we Switched around Genises with Revellations. Its not going to affect the information contained within the Chapters of the Bible, all thats going to change is the sequence of the chapters so how exactly is that even consider an arguement to prove corruption in the text?

Chapter 6: What happend to all these versions? Samuel says the Christians have better position by not destroying Christian veriences

Mustafa Sahin: I wonder if Samuel even bothers asking himself who this Uthman is for starters? Because when i engaged him on facebook he kept silent on the matter? Do you know why?
The reason why his silent is because he knows as well as we do. That Uthman is not just anybody. He is the closest companion of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). And it wasn’t Uthman alone who gave us the Correct Standard rather Uthman was accompanied by the Council of the Muslims again who were direct Companions of the Prophet who all agreed on the Standard Canon of the Quran. And any veriation un-intentionaly written was destroyed as to not confuse the Muslims on what was really inspired, and what is wrong with that? Im pretty sure if the Christian faith had a direct Desciple of Jesus Christ who gave us 1 standard Canon of the Bible and Burnt out any other verience. The Christians today would have Glorified that Desciple.

In fact it gets worse for Samuel since now i will expose him on double standards.

This is what Samuel Green said earlier qoute:
“Christians have not enforced one canon on the entire Christian world. Ok”. End Qoute.

I wonder if Samuel knew? That according to Apostle Paul in Christianity he too forced people to agree to his standard version of the Bible, what is worse is he did it alone and not by a council of the rest of Jesus Christ other deciples. In fact He Paul even cursed other desciples for turning to a different version of the Bible then the one he preaches. Read for example: Galatians 1: 4-6 and 2 Corinthians 11:4 Keep in note Unlike Uthman, Aspostle Paul was not a direct desciple of the once living Jesus Christ on earth. The mistake that Paul commited unlike Uthman is that Paul forgot to burn the other copies of the Bible, therefore when we look at the Christian Denominations of today we have diffrent Versions of the Bible with Diffrent amount of Books and no one can for sure tell us whos complete Canon is Divinly Inspired.

Praise be to Allah thann you to Both Uthman and the Council of Early Muslims we have One standard Quran. But not so thank you to Apostle Paul Christianity still has many versions not agreed upon, even by the presence of the Holy Spirit. So you tell us: Which Faith has more confidence in it’s Scripture?

Chapter 7: Did All of Muhammeds Companions agree with Uthmans actions? IBN Masood concealing his Quran?

Our Muslims Response: http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2011/09/ibn-masud-disagreement-uthman-quran.html?m=1

Chapter 8: Is Uthmani Quran complete?
Sureh Rajam missing?

Our Muslim Response:
http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2009/08/myth-of-qurans-lost-verse-about-stoning.html?m=1

Second Response:
We used to recite sureh Rajam as long as sureh barat.
Notice this was 1 companion who forgot.
Yet Samuel Ignored the vast Majority of other Memorizes amoung them.

Chapter 9:

Our Muslim Response:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Qiraat/green.html#Vowel

Chapter 10:

Our Muslim Response:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Qiraat/hafs.html#5

(Note): I was glad enough to engage about (Chapter 10) with Samuel Green. Here is our exchange after he read the refutations i posted to him personally on Facebook.

I wrote to him a Question: If Uthman destroyed all the other versions. Why are you hear telling us we have diffrent versions of the Quran today?

Samuel Green replies”
The text that Uthman standardised was vague. It did not include vowels or diacritical markings. The different Readers read the words differently and put the vowels and diacritical marks in different ways. To say that all of these 1000s of differences go back to Muhammad is absurd. All of the differences exist where the Arabic text is vague. That is there source not Muhammad.

Mustafa Sahin:
Well get rid of all the diatrical markings we still have Quran going back to the Prophets first companions in the time line of Zaid Ibn Thabit and Ali

Samuel Green replies:
You said”> well get rid of all the diatrical markings we still have Quran going back to the Prophets first companions in the time line of Zaid Ibn Thabit and Muhammad Tarzan Ali

No you do not example 92:3
In the Qur’an according to Abdullah ibn Masud:
“By the male and the female.” (Qur’an 92:3)

In the Qur’an according to Zaid ibn Thabit
“And by Him Who created male and female.” (Qur’an 92:3)

Mustafa Sahin:
When Two diffrent companions in the life of the Prophet came to them with slight diffrence in Recitation the Prophet said BOTH are accepted why? Because there was no major change in the meaning of the verse. Hence, if we were to read Zaid ibn Thabit and Ibn Masood 92:3

I will come to the conclusion that Allah obviously created both the male and the female.

Hence there is no drastic verience. Both would have been accepted. There is a authentic Hadeeth. As we have seen this even happen during the life of the Prophet where 2 companions came having slight verience and the Prophet said both are Correct. End qoute. ( So long as it doesn’t drastically change the meaning of the message conveyed) Proof: of hadeeth can be read here: Under-Subtile: “Revelation of Quran in Seven Ahruf”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qira’at

Samuel Green replies:
You acknowledge my point that the text are different with the vowels and points removed. You may accept both, fine. They are just quite different in theology.

Mustafa Sahin:
For i disagree that they have theological diffrences as All Muslims believe both male and females have been Created by Allah and not some space Alien. One verse is little more explicit then the other in saying that it does not change the conclusion of the meaning of the verse.

Further Brother (Ijaz Ahmed) Respons:
Samuel said: “The text that Uthman standardised was vague.” Considering we are able to read it completely and understand it, how does that make it vague? It is complete in its writing and preserves the recitation. There is no issue.

“It did not include vowels or diacritical markings.” Open any Arabic website, it is normal to write without using diacritical marks. Open any NT papyri pre-4th century, none of them have diacritical marks (breathings/ polytonic miniscule koine). By your own standards, it would mean the earliest NT writings were vague and could not be read.

“The different Readers read the words differently and put the vowels and diacritical marks in different ways.” I don’t think you understand how either Arabic or Greek works. Sure, there can be many combinations, but they are delimited by use and context. That’s like saying there are hundreds of thousands of English words, so we are unable to put one sentence together that everyone agrees on is correct, from something our English teacher wrote on the school’s whiteboard. It’s absurd.

“To say that all of these 1000s of differences go back to Muhammad is absurd.”

There are only 10 major recitations, all of which are very delimited in scope. There are people today that memorize the two popular qira’at today and the less popular ones as well! So proof by contradiction. Qari Abdul Basit knew several at once and would recite them at functions. So how is it absurd, when we have living proof…? You argument is absurd, you are absurd.

(Because I know you are pendantic and uneducated, I know he’s deceased, I’m saying we have today many Qurra who know more than one style, but that up until recently, there was one person who knew several, if not most of the Qira’at differences by heart.)

“All of the differences exist where the Arabic text is vague. That is there source not Muhammad.”

None of it is “vague”, you’re just uneducated about the text. If lack of diacritical marks makes a text vague, then every single early NT papyri is vague and thus cannot be read and understood 😉 Be consistent, and well, try not to embarrass yourself. It is clear you do not understand either Arabic or Greek, you do not understand textual criticism, you are not versed in either tradition on their preservation, you do not understand how basic terms are used or what they mean and when called to explain, you make things up as you go along.

Chapter 11: Is the Isnad chain of Narration Authentic proof for Quran.

Samuel Green Qoutes in parts 5,6,7 of his Articles claims Ibn Masood and kab did not recite the Quran same way hence proving Brocken Chain.

Mustafa Sahin: Well we responded to Part 5,6,7 to Show this is all Samuel Greens false Perseption. And Ibn Masood and Kab once Cross Referencing was done in the Compilation process they were both in agreement to each others information. For they agreed in the end to compile it.

My Conclusion:

Samuel Green admitted on Facebook: When i asked him the Question why if there are supposedly many versions of the Quran not agreed upon amoung early companions do Muslims not have diffrent Qurans today and we only have one Standard?

Samuel Green wrote back:
He writes’ Why is it that we Only agree upon 1 stardard version? “Because Uthman destroyed all the other versions”.

Mustafa sahin: As you have witnessed Samuel Green admits we have 1 Standard Quran and not many other Versions. Left to us by the companion of the Prophet. It is interesting to note Samuel Green himself is very confused about the Subject few days ago he says Uthman burnt all the other versions for why we have Uthamns version today, then next day he seems as though to elapse in the mind and says we still have Diffrent versions today. How is it that he says we have more then one version today while he then says Uthman burnt all the other versions, you cant have both! either Uthman burnt all the other version or he did not and we can see them today. Its obvious things are not adding up in samuel’s assertions, rather his exposing his own confusion on the matter.

It is then obvious that this is all Samuels misconception of not understanding that the Prophet allowed the Quran to be recited in seven Ways for why Scribes wrote in diffrent dialects, Without significantly changing its meaning as it was allowed back in the Prophets time. Samuel thought this was Diffrent Qurans when in reality its only but one Quran pronounced in slighly diffrent ways, without changing the message conveyed in the verse drastically. It is clear there’s only one Quran with minor differences in pronunciations of few words for example:

Warsh and Hafs Quran are they Really Diffrent?
NO. There’s only one Quran with minor differences in pronunciations of few words which do not affect the meaning of the sentence AT ALL.

For example in Surah Al Fatiha the word “Malik” or “Melik” or in Surah Alkahf “Hami’ah” or “Hameeah” .

Hafs Quran Sureh 5:54 ” Yartadda”
Warsh Quran Sureh 5:54 “Yartadid”

NOTICE: No drastic Change, in fact:

The Prophet Muhammed allowed diffrent pronunciation so long as it does not drastically change the meaning. Two companions of the Prophet argued because there pronunciation were slightly verient in Words, the Prophet said both are Correct. As long as it does not change meaning of verse drastically.

So both Warsh and Hafs are the same Quran which passes the same meaning.
We have seen that Proof Elhamdulilah Today.
And only a Error on Samuel Greens part to think otherwise.

Samuel Green Wrote;
I make no such error. Please read my article and see for yourself.
http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven.htm

Muslim Response:
Again Samuel, there is no diffrences in the meaning in any major way. Even with vowles they have no drastic Change in meaning. In fact the only change we see may come in

1)Prophets were killed (Hafs: 3:46)

2)And Prophets were fought. (Warsh 3:46)

But we can fix this up.All you need to do is read it without the vowels.In its pure way.And the arabic is exactly the same.

Which gives us (Qatala) for both Hafs and Warsh.
In the Warsh Translation the English Translator forgot to put the second (Dot) Not Fatalah but Qatalah. So there remove vowels its all the same.

End of Story. You have no Case Samuel.

Further Readings Christians Bring up The Sana Manuscript discovered in Yemen was there anything wrong with them?

Shabir Ally Replies: https://youtu.be/P-PT0J-NWyQ

Also Adnan Rasheed Reply:

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This next section:
Brother Ijaz Ahmed continues to Rebbutle Samuel Green further on the Topic. Go Part 2

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